Top tips from experts on how to get a board role

Intro:
Hello, and welcome to the CPA Australia podcast, your weekly source for accounting, education, career, and leadership discussion.

Jackie Blondell:
This podcast will cover the strategies, tactics, and methods for getting a board director role. Those with a proven track record in financial roles, particularly at C-suite level are in demand for board roles, particularly on audit and finance committees. Today, we talk to two people with extensive experience of board life. One is a long-standing non-executive director, the other, a board recruiter and trainer. Our first guest, Janice van Reyk, CPA, is a Fellow of the Australian Institute of Directors and has been a non-executive director since she was in her twenties. She specialises in chairing audit and risk committees, and safety and environment committees. Her current directorships include Australian Naval Infrastructure, Lochard Energy, Tennis Australia, and the Northern Territory Environment Protection Authority. Joining her today is David Schwarz, founder and CEO of Board Direction, a leading Australian non-executive director, advertising, and board career development firm. David started Board Direction with the explicit intention of helping people seeking board roles through a simple three-step plan. We'll discuss this plan later in the podcast. Welcome, Janice, and welcome, David.

Janice van Reyk:
Thanks, Jackie. Great to be here.

David Schwarz:
Thanks, Jackie.

Jackie Blondell:
First up, Janice, I'm going to ask you, can you tell us a little bit about your career and how it helped you position yourself as a full-time board director?

Janice van Reyk:
Sure. Look, I worked across a range of various finance, legal, and risk roles in a number of listed companies and eventually made it to the executive level in the C-suite and had the great opportunity to work with a lot of fantastic CEOs, and CFOs, and chairmen, and meet a lot of other directors, and all the while I was very, very fortunate that the companies I worked for always allowed me to have a board career in the background, one or two outside directorships. So, I was always learning those director skills and it was a great professional development opportunity for me as well in helping my executive career. And then a time came when I wanted to broaden myself even further so I went and I requalified in environmental management and started working on infrastructure projects. And really, when I left executive life, it was that unique combination of industry, infrastructure, finance, legal, and environment, I became quite an unusual combination that suited a particular type of company. So, it was quite a natural progression to become a director when I left executive life.

Jackie Blondell:
I'm just quite interested in taking the environmental track and requalifying in environmental management. What decade was that, and what led you to decide that that was going to become a key skill for the future?

Janice van Reyk:
Yeah, well, that was around 2007. Obviously, I was aware of climate change and all of that before then, but that was when the Stern Report came out, and I realised having been in corporate life for a long time, I'd finally seen the long-term and I could see that environmental legacies while you can make economic returns from businesses in the short run, when you eventually had to close them, the legacies and liabilities from it actually cost you more than the shareholder value that you added in a profit-making time. So, I approached it from a purely economic commercial basis. And then I realised that these were skills that were going to be needed in the next 10, 20 years, and I wanted to be at the cutting edge of those skills which is why I went and I did it. So, it wasn't necessarily from a purely environmental perspective, although, of course, I love nature and all of that. I came at it from a very hard-edged commercial economic basis.

Jackie Blondell:
Talk about skill sets further down in the podcast, but let's just look back to your first director role which was in your twenties. What was that role and what led you to develop a career as a board director from a relatively young age?

Janice van Reyk:
Yeah, well, it started by accident and I was actually sort of moonlighting, thinking I could be a stand-up comedian. And so, I was doing improv classes at this small theatre company, and one day they came along to me and said, "Look, you're not actually funny, but we can actually see that you've got a good business brain. Would you like to be on our board instead?" So, I just sort of said, "Okay, sure." And that was my first board role.
And from there, I got approached to be on other arts companies or arts festivals, et cetera, until eventually one day, someone saw or heard about me and I was appointed to the Victorian Arts Centre Trust. So, that was probably my first big board role. And from there, once you sort of end up at that level, I then met the criteria to join the Australian Institute of Company Directors. And back then, it was a fairly closed shop and largely males. It wasn't the democratic institute that it is today. And so, really, that became the basis of continuing a board career while I still had an executive career.

Jackie Blondell:
So, it was happenstance in a way, although you were actually interested in a lot of corporate theory and had done a lot of that sort of study at university.

Janice van Reyk:
Yes. I had done my honours thesis in corporations law because I was utterly fascinated at corporations as a vehicle for creating shareholder value but also societal value. And I'd done economics so I understood the theory of the firm. So, I had sort of got onto this bandwagon before it was fashionable or a sought-after career. So, it was always something that was almost a calling in me from back in university days. So, when I'm sort of accidentally asked to be a director, it seemed a very natural thing for me to say yes to it because I understood what it meant. By the time I left executive life, I had done so many different board roles that I had done the proverbial 10,000 hours. So, it was quite a natural progression for me.

Jackie Blondell:
Now, David, you've read thousands of CVS and interviewed many, many would-be board directors. Can you tell us why is there a perception that it's difficult to obtain board roles?

David Schwarz:
Thanks. Look, I think it is often difficult to obtain a board appointment. Certainly, the people that I work with, I work with people looking for their first appointment, for a subsequent appointment, something more significant perhaps, and indeed people like Janice who have a portfolio of appointments, and I think they all find it not easy, or at least not necessarily a quick process. So, I think it is difficult to obtain. But I think recognising that it is a highly competitive space and there's always going to be more opportunities than there are... Or, sorry, more candidates than there are opportunities, I think is a really important thing to do because once you've recognising that it is a competitive environment, it means you can perhaps start thinking about well, why am I more competitive than perhaps one of my competitors are going to be. Essentially, why should they appoint me as opposed to somebody else?
So, I think whilst it is competitive, there is also thousands and thousands opportunities available. There was a study done last year that found that 50% of Australian businesses that had boards recruited a new board member in that last 12 months. And the same study was done actually in the UK, and I think this is amazing, that found that 82% of organisations with boards recruited a new board member in that previous 12 months. So, whilst it's competitive, there actually thousands of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands opportunities filled each year. I think the question is not is this competitive, but rather well, how do you find those opportunities and how do you get appointed to them.

Jackie Blondell:
And it comes down to the perceptions that the person has about board roles. Can you talk a little bit about the sort of roadblocks, personal roadblocks people might have that they may not realise they have when they're starting to think I might like to embark on board roles?

David Schwarz:
Yeah, absolutely, and this reflects something Janice and I were talking about earlier. I think there are four big problems that people face regardless of their skills or level of experience when thinking about a board appointment. The first is I think people struggle to be able to articulate what sort of board is right for them. I think one of the... Well, in fact, I know one of the questions people are going to ask aspiring directors is what board are you looking for? What role do you want? And a lot of people really struggle to answer that question. So, I think the first big problem is people's inability to be able to clearly define the organisations that they both want and can be appointed to it. That's the first big problem.
I think the second big problem is the inability to articulate their value at board level, particularly executives, executives who have been doing perhaps a great job as a CFO or a marketing director or a CIO or CEO. What they struggle to is be able to translate that experience, their skills at board level, being able to articulate why they should be appointed based on that skills and that experience, as opposed to somebody else with similar skills and experience. Look, lawyers, accountants, audit risks people are very appointable, but even if you've got those appointable skills, you're still competing against other people with similar skills. And so, you need to be able to better articulate your value, and I think people really struggled to do that. That's the skill-

Jackie Blondell:
How does that make it... Oh, sorry, David.

David Schwarz:
Okay.

Jackie Blondell:
How does that make it different from... I mean, because you've had a career also as a headhunter recruiter. How does applying for a board role and articulating your worth make it different from applying for a similar or high-level executive role and articulating your worth? Is there something extra that people need to be aware of?

David Schwarz:
Yeah. Well, and maybe we could get back to this a little bit later, Jackie.

Jackie Blondell:
Okay.

David Schwarz:
Because actually, we've got to start thinking about not what your motivations are, not what the motivations are of a candidate to gain a board appointment, but rather we've got to think about what the motivators are of the chair or the appointing body and what they're looking for in a successful candidate. And so, I think that's the difference. Because an executive pitching for an executive role is going to be focusing on those executive requirements, the operations if you will, whereas a non-executive appointment is going to be looking for those non-executive skills which are naturally different. That's the second point about being able to articulate really compellingly the reason you should be appointed to a board.
The third big problem that people face is they're just unsure about how board appointments are made. And so, I find that people spend their time doing the wrong sort of things, the things that are easy to do but don't necessarily result in a board appointment. And I think because of those three big problems, an inability to articulate what their organisation is that they want to be appointed to, why they should be appointed to it, or how they're going to be appointed to it leads to the fourth big problem which is, frankly, a lack of confidence. A lack of confidence whether you're male or female to go out and gain board appointments, use your skills at board level which are just so valuable, both from a give-back perspective to helping an organisation grow, indeed, growing your own career.

Jackie Blondell:
Okay, great. So, maybe we can delve a little bit more into how these problems can be overcome by looking at your three-step plan towards a director or director role. What is involved in this process?

David Schwarz:
Yeah, thanks, Jackie. So, many people think about gaining a board appointment as being a journey, and lots of people say, "Look, it's a journey. It takes time." And indeed, it can take some time. I think thinking about gaining a board appointment as a journey is actually doing yourself a massive disservice. I don't think it is a journey. I think it's much more akin to being a process, and I think a very clearly defined one, whether you're starting your first board appointment, you're looking for a more significant appointment, or indeed, you have a board career and you're looking to build on it. There are three things that I think make sense, and these obviously are going to reflect the big problems that people face.
The first is you've got to be able to articulate what sort of board you both want and can be appointed to, and you need to be able to do that by name. When I ask people and I ask this all the time, I say, "Look, what sort of board are you looking for?" And they will talk to me very generically and say, "Look, I've been working in the infrastructure space for decades, and so I think it's going to be in and around infrastructure, but of course, I'm interested in not-for-profits as well. And well, maybe it's construction, and actually, I've been thinking about social housing." And so, they give me a whole range of different industries that they might be appointed to. But they're unable to whittle that down to specific examples of where they know they can add value and could be appointed. And because of that, they come across as really generic. They come across as poorly thought through, and frankly, a risk, a risk for my reputation. So, if I was to introduce them to somebody that might be able to help, but frankly, they couldn't even get to that far because I'm just not sure where it is they want to be appointed.
So, if this was a pyramid structure, I think defining a list of target organisations that they both want and can be appointed to sits at the bottom of that pyramid, and then everything else builds on top of it. It provides focus, clarity, and also gives a sense of security for people who hear that about those appointments, that they make sense. And I think that's really important. So, that's the first thing to do. The second then is obviously developing a compelling pitch, a compelling reason that you should be appointed to a board, your board profile if you will. And this needs to address what I think, and Janice, I'll be interested in your thoughts on this, I think it needs to address the five things that a chair is looking for in a successful candidate.
The first is prior governance experience that is having sat on or worked with boards before. So, you don't need to have been a director to be a director is what I'm saying, but you should soon be able to evidence some board governance skills. The second is an executive skill set, but why that skill set is valuable at board level, as opposed to at an operational element. The third is around the networks and the relationships that you offer the organisation and how they can leverage those to help the organisation improve what it does, or indeed, grow. Then the fourth element is around, I think, demonstrable passion, that is passion for what the organisation does, is, or indeed, your contribution to it. I think that's really important. And then the third... Oh, sorry. And then the fifth is around cultural fit. If you were to be appointed to the board, are you going to screw things up? Are you going to risk the reputation of the chair? And so, you need to be able to derisk your appointment to that cultural fit element.
So, I think there's those five key elements that address the reasons that you should be appointed to a board as opposed to the reasons you want to be appointed to a board. And then finally, you just need to understand how the board appointment process is made. And often, it's not the way that you think it is. I mean, people think it's about your CV. People think it's about recruiters. People think it's about banging out application after application after application. People think it's about their really close friends or their colleagues who are going to get them appointed. People think it's about those sort of obvious ways to gain a board appointment. In many cases, it's not. Some cases it is. But as far as the return on investment of your time, it's often not those places.

Jackie Blondell:
What do you find are the main ways people get appointed then, David?

David Schwarz:
Look, I worked briefly with the Australian Institute of Company Directors and I ran their directorship opportunity service which is their job listings site. And when I was there, I did a study and I asked how current directors found their most recent board appointment. And we got four responses. 10% of people said they're appointed to their most recent board via an advertised opportunity. 10% said they used a recruiter and they were appointed by a recruiter. 15% said they'd directly approached an organisation with an offer to help. And an overwhelming 65% of people were appointed to a board via a personal connection or said they were appointed to a board via a personal connection. Look, it wasn't a perfect study. It was possible that a recruiter advertised a role and a colleague told them about that opportunity. But it was pretty clear that successful directors thought it was their personal connections who vastly were more valuable than all those other elements combined.

Jackie Blondell:
Okay. Well, we're going to talk about personal connections, contacts in a minute. But, Janice, I'd just like to return to you and ask you, obviously, you've been a board director since your twenties, as we've mentioned, but what about a mid-career executive? I mean, I think David's process and outline has illustrated how he feels and the career executive can transition. What are your thoughts on how they might make the move into board directorships?

Janice van Reyk:
Well, firstly, I would say a lot of what David just said is excellent advice, and I wish someone like him had been around to have helped me back in the day. But several things really struck me, resonated. And I think that whole know your wheelhouse, have the clarity and focus about that early enough in mid-career, I think it's really important about where you're going to fit best. But then I would add something David also said that you need to get an executive skill set. And to me that does mean getting to the C-suite or whatever the equivalent is in your field because it might be, I don't know, academia, science, or even the defence forces. People in those areas do get appointed to boards as well because they have very valuable skills to add.
So, whatever that equivalent is of getting to the most senior level in your chosen sphere is always really important because it means you've been at the pointy end of the ship. You've been used to making those bet the company kind of decisions within uncertain conditions with imperfect information. And that's this closer that it's going to get to the sorts of collective judgement you have to exercise as a director because that's what directors do. So, I think that's really important to take your career as far as you can go to the highest level of seniority.
And then I think you need to be able to demonstrate a track record of going beyond what your specialty is. People want to know that you've got that leadership and influential skill that you can work across peers, across an organisation to achieve whatever the strategic outcome is or executing on your strategy or your project. And again, that's a very necessary skills for directors to have because again, it's a collective decision-making body. It's a collective endeavour, and it's those sorts of experiences that help you get to the starting of being a director.

David Schwarz:
Yeah, Janice, I was just reflecting on this idea of having a C-suite role in order to gain appointments, which I'm not sure that's exactly what you're saying. But I think it very much depends on where your aspirations lie as well. Right? I think at your level [inaudible 00:22:35] having had that C-suite experience would be a massive deficit. But thinking back to younger Janice, the potential comedian, that lack of C-suite didn't really impact your appointability for that role, that first role, at least.

Janice van Reyk:
Definitely not. You make a very good point. I was talking more if you wanted to do it as a profession [crosstalk 00:22:59]

David Schwarz:
Ah yes.

Janice van Reyk:
... I do now. But certainly, younger Janice, the things I followed or what I call where I had an intrinsic interest and what I consider there was a purpose fit. So, all of those roles that I had throughout my sort of corporate career were things where it was intrinsically of interest to me and I felt it was purposeful, and therefore, it was discretionary effort, but I enjoyed it and I learned a great deal from it. So, you're quite right.

David Schwarz:
And look, and that actually reflects my albeit limited board experiences as a director myself. Social housing was my background and my passion. And that's where I gained, that's where I've held my two board appointments in that social housing space. No, I've never been a CEO, albeit I am of my own business. I'd never worked for a C-suite. I was a headhunter prior, but it was that passion, you'd called it the intrinsic interest, which just is so powerful. I think people overlook how powerful that is. I think people think that to be a director, you have to be a lawyer or an accountant and have been a CEO before, but I think there's a... Well, I know there's a vast, vast number of opportunities out there that would be lovely to have, but frankly, they're just as interested in your fit, your passion, your networks, and your understanding, and desire to contribute.

Janice van Reyk:
Indeed. Well said.

Jackie Blondell:
I'd like to go back to skills that you touched on a few very interesting ones, Janice, in terms of being able to think outside your speciality, being able to make big decisions on imperfect information, but can we just return a little bit to the idea of contacts? David did talk about this earlier and cited some AICD research on personal relationships. Can I ask you, obviously, with your first board appointments, that was a personal relationship, how important are contacts? People often perceive that you need a vast Rolodex or virtual Rolodex of important contacts to gain board positions. What's your feeling?

Janice van Reyk:
Well, certainly my early career, it was largely all serendipity, happenstance, accident, whatever you want to call it because someone who knew me or had seen me presented something, sort of came to me with those opportunities. So, definitely, I was probably in the 65% that David is mentioning.
But then as you sort of become a professional director as I have, while connections are important, I think it's more about the quality of those connections rather than the quantity. And in my experience, I always had one goal. Once I got an appointment, I always wanted to do the best job I could possibly do to get reappointed. That was always my goal was to get reappointed because then no one would say, "Oh, she just got that by chance." If you get reappointed, you then know the people you're sitting around the table with you value the contribution that you bring because they effectively evaluate you as to whether you get reappointed. So, it was those people that I'd sat around the board table with who knew me, well knew the character of the person that I am, and had seen me in action, and what I brought to those companies, they then became my best advocates for getting the next role and the next role when my two-year or three-year terms, whatever it was, came up. So, I do think connections are important, but I think it's the quality of them, not the quantity.

David Schwarz:
Yeah. I think I certainly I agree, although I'd probably broaden out a little bit. I think certainly at the level you're working at, Janice, those connections are just... And frankly, doing a great job and therefore having people support you at that level is so important. And clearly, it does result in other opportunities. For people that don't yet have that experience, it's a little bit circular, isn't it? I want to sit on boards so I can impress people, but I can't sit on a board yet until I impress people so they feel like they get stuck in this place.
And so, people come to me all the time saying, "David, look, I've just moved back to Australia or I'm changing careers, or I don't have the level of connections that I think, or I think I know that I need in order to gain a board appointment. Is it even worth me starting this process?" And my response to that is, "You know what? That is a great question to ask, but it is also the easiest thing in the world for you to rectify." So, let me explain what that is. Look, it starts initially, obviously, having a clear list of organisations that you want to be appointed to. I think once you've done that, then you can start mapping out the people that you need to have conversations with to gain board appointments.
There was a study done in Malcolm Gladwell's book called Tipping Point. He quotes from a guy called Mark Granovetter. It's a classic study called How to Get a Job which just means it's an old study. In that study, Mark Granovetter interviewed, I can't remember, it was like 400 or 800 Boston executives and asked them how they found their most recent executive appointment. And he found that 56% of those people were appointed to that executive role via personal connection. So, it kind of mirroring the study that I did that found that 65% of people were appointed to a board by that same process.
But he then, really importantly, asked the question, he said, "How often did you speak with that person that got you that executive role?" An overwhelming 83% of that 56%, so perhaps 40% overall, spoke to that person rarely or infrequently. It wasn't that the people they saw regularly and frequently that gained them that executive role. Rather, it was the people they saw rarely or infrequently, and these people are called weak ties. And so, if we bring that back to my study, that's perhaps 50% of all board appointments. I think this reflects your earlier note, Janice, about how your early appointments were made. It occurs through serendipity, through people you're seeing rarely or infrequently. They're the people that are most powerful in this process, particularly at that starting out and medium space in your board career. Clearly, as you move up the echelon, those personal connections, those strong ties are super important where risk comes into play a little bit more.
But I think for people that are beginning or in their mid-careers, it's definitely about quality, but it's also not about the people that you already know often. It's about developing quality relationships with the people that count. And so, that starts then with knowing what sort of role you want to be appointed to and mapping out the people in and around that organisation, particularly past non-executives so they can develop relationships with them because they're often the people that you gain an appointment through rather than your close friends and your colleagues. What do you think about that, Janice?

Janice van Reyk:
I think your reflection is very good, and you brought a perspective that's informed me as well because I actually forget what younger mid-career Janice went through, and you're spot on when I'm listening to you. They were very weak ties. I sort of called it fluke or serendipity, but yeah. And that was how I got my first breaks that eventually aggregate to giving you a very good board career towards the end.

David Schwarz:
Yeah, it's funny because when people come to me and ask for some advice, I say, "You know what my job is, is to help you get lucky."

Janice van Reyk:
Yeah.

David Schwarz:
And you'll look back, I take them with to a breakfast event or something and I'll say, "Look, at the end of the day, just tell people you're looking for a board appointment." It can often be the most valuable thing that you can do. And then you'll feel like you get lucky and you'll leave this and say, "Oh, look, I got a board appointment, but I just got lucky. David didn't really help." But just kind of doing simple things and telling people you're looking can often be the most valuable.

Janice van Reyk:
I completely agree.

Jackie Blondell:
Let's nut out some skills. Obviously, we've talked about prior governance in this podcast being something that the various stakeholders involved in board appointments are keen on. But let's look at other skills. Janice, you've mentioned a few which I think might be the wider fit of what stakeholders are after in terms of understanding workforce, and so on.

Janice van Reyk:
Yeah. Well, firstly, I think I'm not sure I've got five, but I think what chairman or nons committees look for they will have an idea in their skills matrix. They still use those skills and industry matrices as to what the role is. So, they will look for people with relevant skills and experience to fit whatever their particular skills and industry matrix will be. So, that's the first thing. That's going to be different across all the different boards.
But then I think there are some general things that would apply to any organisation, and that every organisation has a customer, and you absolutely have to bring a customer-centric view and understand the customer proposition very, very well. Every organisation has a workforce capability of that workforce and the culture are essential to achieving your strategy and performing well. So, you have to be able to understand that piece. You don't need to be a people and HR professional but you do have to understand the importance of workforce capability and culture because people really are our best assets.
And then I think what I'm seeing is there some sort of digital kind of skills that a lot of boards seem to be looking for, and this is about looking into the future. They're looking at people who've got skills in digital transformations, hands-on experience in that. And the other is transitioning to a low-carbon future. Those seem to be two sort of more specialised types of skills that boards are looking for as opposed to more general ones.

Jackie Blondell:
Extra thoughts on skills, David?

David Schwarz:
Yeah, look, I mean, I think I probably agree with Janice. I think that the digital space and the ESG space is certainly more topical than it's ever been and on the back of COVID and what have you. I think that's accurate. I think it's worth thinking about what sort of skills are not less valuable, but don't necessarily separate you from others from an appointment perspective.
I think a lot of people when they're thinking about how they can add value in a board environment talk about strategy because there's this idea that boards are just focused on strategy all the time and they're great at strategy. And I think a lot of people aren't very good at strategy. But I also feel like most directors when asked what their skill set is and whether strategy is one of them would say yes. And so, I think it's worth pausing and saying, "Look, strategy could very well be a skill set of yours, but is it going to separate you from your competitors? Is it going to be compelling enough for you to focus your application around when they already feel like they already have those skills?"
So, I always feel like strategy is one of these things that people feel like they should say, but actually, it would be much better to think about well, what is their core skill set, and then how is that one valuable at board level. And just backing yourself, not saying you can do half a dozen things, hoping that one of them catches somebody's interest, but rather just absolutely being focused. At board level, what I do is, and then defending that statement with a and I do that by. I think using those two key lines helps candidates focus their value and be able to articulate it really clearly.

Jackie Blondell:
David, can I just ask... It's a bit of a step back from the skill side of it. How many boards are you aware of that are hesitant in employing first-time directors? Is the application process a bit more difficult for people who've yet to land a role?

David Schwarz:
Yeah, that's actually a great question. If you think back to the study that I did earlier about how people got a board appointment, 80% of appointments were made without using a recruiter or advertising opportunity. So, the roles that we see advertised, or indeed, using recruiters often talk about prior governance experience, having been a director for a certain number of years. Now, that's often a by-product of the scale of the organisation advertising. If they can afford a recruiter, they're pretty significant organisations so they probably want a pretty significant director to join their board. And if they're going out into the public domain, if they're an advert, they're going to get lots of applications so they should be aiming for the stars and asking for someone who is a current director or has director experience.
But if you think about the 80% of organisations who are never advertising and who never going to use a recruiter, they are not always looking for... Now, that's not true at Janice's level, but they're not always looking for somebody who's been a director before. In fact, I actually think being a director and being a lawyer and accountant, it's not necessarily something that most organisations are looking for. Some definitely are. But just think about my organisation and our advisory board. We don't need a director, an experienced non-executive director to sit on our board. It would be useful and it would be nice to have, but we actually don't have much formal governance to deal with. So, we don't really need that. We don't need a lawyer, an accountant on our board either because we've not got complex accounts. We're not going through MNAs. We don't necessarily need that. But look, a skill set that's complementary to mine would be useful.
But what we're really interested in are the networks, the relationships, the demonstrable passion for what it is we do, and the ability to work with me and the other advisory board members. That is what we're interested in. It's those last three criteria which don't require you to have been a director before which I think most organisations at that medium-bottom end are looking for above and beyond prior governance experience.

Jackie Blondell:
Let's turn to qualities which is sort of slightly different to skills. We want to look at the qualities would-be board directors should possess that are attractive to the appointing board. Janice, you mentioned seeing the big picture and exercising good judgement in uncertain conditions with imperfect information. That's a scary leap, isn't it, from an executive role, or am I just being a bit pessimistic in terms of how you develop that quality?

Janice van Reyk:
Well, I guess you develop those qualities on the job because that's how most learning happens is learning by doing so it will be a function and an outcome of the roles that you've had. I think one of the points David in reflecting has made me think about is what a mid-career person does as opposed to someone who's now taking my lens of it which is a professional director. So, usually, the boards I'm looking at, the person even to get onto the list would already have had the set of experiences and roles that would have lent themselves to developing those skills.
But another thing I would say though is people actually really do look at your personal integrity and your cultural fit because as I've said before, it's a collective endeavour, and they want to know that the person that they're sitting around the table with is someone who can be trusted, and when the chips are down, you will retain board solidarity and board confidence. And those sorts of personal qualities become very, very important.
And I just wanted to pick up something else David said because I think it's a very powerful question and it's one that I do in my own practise. Every time I'm up for another role, I ask two or three, four perhaps board members who I've been on a board with before, and I say, "Look, I'm being put up for this opportunity. I would like you to give me feedback that at a board," this is a great question. "At a board level, what do I do and how do I do it?" And it's amazing the feedback that I get and it's usually pretty consistent. And so, when I go for interviews, I'm not just trying to sell myself saying, "I do this, I do this, I do this." I say that look, people who sat around the board table with me say this about me. And they say this is what I do and this is what I bring. And I think that's a much more powerful way of doing an interview because you've got real feedback from people who have sat around the table with you.

David Schwarz:
Yeah, I completely agree, Janice. I think a lot of people find that sort of feedback scary to ask for it because they're not quite sure what they're getting, but I think if you've got it and it just helps you incredibly to just deliver that message in a really genuine and authentic way, and I think that carries a lot of weight at board level.

Jackie Blondell:
David, can you tell us are there some board roles in demand than others from people seeking your help?

David Schwarz:
So, I work with people across the government, not-for-profit, and commercial sectors, and we're industry agnostic as well. So, people come to me often not clear about what sort of role they want specifically. They often are looking for a paid role, or perhaps... I was going to say often, but they're often looking for paid or a first role, or indeed, a subsequent and most significant appointment.
I find though topically, people are very much interested in startup organisations at the moment. I think startups are very much the flavour of the proverbial month, and I think for good reason. They're exciting. For some people, it allows them to be a little bit more operational. They quite like that. There's a big upside. There's also a significant risk that comes with those and a pretty significant investment of time because I find that startups, at least lowly funded startups if funded at all, are going to want access to you, your networks. They want to call you on a Saturday night, follow you up on Sunday morning. They're going to want you to step in and help them with their HR or some other commercial skill that they require. But I think that startups are still very, very exciting for a lot of people and seem to be where a lot of people want to be starting their careers and see that they can add some value.

Jackie Blondell:
And it's a real passion thing, isn't it, in that case, if you want to help a business from the ground up?

David Schwarz:
Yeah. There is absolutely some of that. But I think the big challenge here is well, how do you find these startups. Where are they? Is it Bill Gates working out of his mum's garage? Where do you find them? And then why would they appoint you? And are you willing to do it for not very much money if anything at all, maybe some skin in the game? So, I think the question is really how do you find them and how you get appointed which is actually the same two questions that anybody needs to be asking about any board appointment. Where do you find these opportunities that are right for me? How am I going to get appointed to them?

Jackie Blondell:
Okay. What about people with a finance background? Obviously, they might have a advantage. I mean, Janice herself is a CPA and has worked in finance roles for many years. How do they play in the current market?

Janice van Reyk:
Well, I guess it depends what the market is. As David has said, the types of organisations that want board members is very diverse. There's listed, there's unlisted, there's big medium enterprises, there's SMEs, there's family-run companies, there's startups, there's not-for-profits, there's government GBEs, et cetera. So, it really depends. And for the types of organisations that I'm in which are of scale and business orientated, then yes, you always need an audit and finance person so they lend themselves to those roles. But David has made a very good point that in a startup, you may not need that. You might need people with really good entrepreneurial skills who know how to get a business stood up and have the networks to find you both customers and investors. So, it really just depends on which segment of the director market you're looking at.

David Schwarz:
Yeah. I think that's exactly right, Janice. And then you're back, aren't we, to what sort of organisation do you want and can you be appointed to. Just because you want to be the chair of BHP doesn't mean you can be the chair of BHP. Maybe your skills and experience are better suited to an SME who's working in a completely different area which reflects your background and your experience and your passions.

Janice van Reyk:
Indeed.

Jackie Blondell:
David, when you see people, do you give them that sort of bottom-line, say to them, "This is perhaps where you're most suited," or do you let them come to that conclusion themselves?

David Schwarz:
Yeah, look, I mean, I try to guide. A lot of our training programmes and we do what's called a career planning session as well where what we do is we unpack people's background and their experience. So, we think about the industries they've worked in. We think about the bodies that represent those industries. We think about their current employer, their past employers. We think about who their competitors were both currently and in the past. We think about who the stakeholders and who the clients are currently in the past for those employers. And then we think about what they're passionate about personally, professionally, and extra professionally. And we unpack all of that background, and then we reverse engineer it and say, "Okay, which organisations are going to value these sorts of connections, this experience?" And by doing that, we often find the answer is in or very, very closely related to that long, unpacked list of organisations.
And going through that process, what I find happens is people kind of click in and go, "Oh, actually, you know what? I'm not going to get appointed to the board of Woolworths. Maybe it is two or three steps below that that I need to focus my attentions in order to achieve that longer-term aspiration in the future." So, I find that I don't actually need to tell people you're not going part of the board of BHP because they either know it or through this process, they work it out. And by doing so, they actually find organisations today that are going to be a genuine opportunity for them to get appointed to.

Jackie Blondell:
I think we might finish with one last question that I'd love each of your thoughts on, just really to round it up. Are there any last tips or advice or do's and don'ts about embarking on a board director career? Janice, do you want to go first?

Janice van Reyk:
You always miss the shot you don't take. So, every time an opportunity came my way, I made sure I put my best foot forward and gave it my best shot. And I will be honest with you to say that I've not been appointed to boards more often than I am, and that's just the way it is. It is a bit of a numbers game. But I've always persisted. I always take every shot, and some fall in your way, some don't, but you just get up the next day and you keep trying. And if you do that for sort of 20 years or whatever it is that I've been doing, then the consistency of that does pay rewards.

David Schwarz:
I think that's one of a very, very common trait of successful directors, that perseverance. I think the other thing is just real clarity about what your value is at board level and which sort of organisations are going to value it. So, my advice is be clear on that. That will make this process that much more focused, and you're going to get a far greater return on the investment of your time if you're chasing opportunities that you know you can be appointed to and that you want to be appointed to.

Jackie Blondell:
Well, I'd like to thank you very, very much, both of you, for your wonderful insights today. And hopefully, that people will be able to take them on board and find board roles for themselves. So, thank you both very, very much, indeed.

David Schwarz:
Thanks, Jackie.

Janice van Reyk:
Thanks, Jackie. Thanks, David. I really enjoyed the conversation.

David Schwarz:
Me too, Janice. Thank you.

Jackie Blondell:
And for more information, please go to our show notes. Thanks for listening.

Outro:
Thanks for listening to the CPA Australia podcast. For more information on today's episode, please visit the show notes at www.cpaaustralia.com.au/podcast. Never miss an episode by subscribing to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Stitcher.