How to build your skills to get noticed and promoted

Intro:
Hello, and welcome to the CPA Australia podcast, your weekly source for accounting, education, career, and leadership discussion.

Dan Langelaan:
Welcome to today's podcast. My name is Dan Langelaan, member of Not-For-Profit and Public Technical Committee at CPA Australia and CFO at Housing First. Are you looking at ways to advance your career or perhaps to position yourself being ready for new opportunities to be promoted in your workplace, or to avoid the traps and pitfalls that might ruin promoting opportunities and be ready to step up?

Dan Langelaan:
Today, we'll be exploring ways that you can enhance your career and provide you with some practical steps and tips that you can set yourself up for the future, and I have two experienced panellists joining me to help explore this topic. Firstly, I have Clare Lezaja. Clare has a distinguished career of over 25 years in the corporate and technology sector and has had various finance roles at Telstra. Clare has been a CPA Australia member for 21 years and served on the Victorian Divisional Council, including as president in 2018 and 19, and was the first appointed chair of the Council of Presidents during 2019. Throughout her career, Clare has played a key leadership role in the development of finance graduates and young finance professionals. Welcome to the podcast, Clare.

Clare Lezaja:
Thanks, Dan.

Dan Langelaan:
Secondly, I've got Shane Michael Hatton. Shane is an experienced mentor, trainer, speaker, and author. Shane spent seven years leading, coaching, and mobilising volunteers in the not-for-profit sector, where he was responsible for building and nurturing the health, growth, and culture of a rapidly expanding membership. This experience at the intersection of people, communication, and leadership, along with the studies in business and psychology, have laid the foundation for his work today as a trainer, mentor, and speaker to leaders and teams. Shane is the author of a book titled, Lead The Room, which was a finalist in the Australian Book Awards in 2019 for the best personal development book. Welcome to the podcast, Shane.

Shane Hatton:
Thanks so much for having me.

Dan Langelaan:
So, firstly, I think we've all been in this situation at some stage, where we've been looking for the next step in their career and not knowing where that's going to come and what shape that's going to look like. Shane, firstly, to you, what types of things would managers be looking for when an internal opportunity comes up when they're looking to promote someone internally?

Shane Hatton:
It's such an interesting question, especially for people that are starting out in their career. One of the big conversations I have with people who are entering the workforce or who are relatively new into the workforce, potentially coming out of study, or even people who've just been starting out their leadership journey, the conversation, or the question that they want to constantly be asking is "What makes me a person worth promoting?" It's an important question to ask, but I also think it's potentially not the better question that we could be asking. I reckon the better question we could be asking is what actually would make me a leader worth following.

Shane Hatton:
I think if we talk about what makes me promotable, we talk about networking, we talk about skills, we talk about looking good. When we talk about what makes me a leader worth following, we actually ask the question, "What is actually required for me to be a leader that other people would want to follow?" Obviously, when people are starting out their career, the first thing we need to think about is obviously the sense of capability that we get from being able to enter the workforce and getting good at what we know. For people who are, I guess, seasoned in leadership and have been around for a long time, they carry this sense of credibility that makes them a leader worth following. But the reality of trying to get to that stage of credibility is you don't build that overnight. You build it with consistency and time.

Shane Hatton:
So, one of the first conversations I have with people who are entering the workforce, who are thinking about their future in leadership, is to ask the question, "How can you get better at what you know? What can you be doing to ask the right questions, to be doing the work, to be reading, to be able to actually get good at what you know?" And then, the second question is "Once you've taken time to actually get good at what you know, what would it look like to show up every day and contribute what I know and bring that expertise and bring that knowledge into the workplace and be able to solve real problems in the organisation?"

Shane Hatton:
Then, the third kind of conversation that we'd be having with people over time is, once you've been able to get good at what you know, and you can show up and you can contribute that within your team, within your organisation, you learn to become a team player, the question then becomes, "How do I help others get good at what I know and start to actually invest into others in the process of that?" I think if you do that consistently, over time, not only do you just get good at what you know, not only do you just build a great network of people and become a person that's promotable, but I also think that, over time, you build the consistency and credibility that makes you a leader worth following.

Dan Langelaan:
That's some great advice, Shane. I know, Clare, yourself, that you've been quite successful with Telstra, in terms of being able to progress your career. Sometimes it seems that it's easier to just jump ship and look for a new role, but you've been able to position yourself to be promoted within that one organisation. Do you want to give us some insights into how you went about doing that?

Clare Lezaja:
Yeah, sure. Happy to share, Dan. As mentioned in your introduction, I worked with Telstra for over 20 years. I actually joined as a graduate and progressed my career to a senior finance executive position reporting to the CFO. Probably the first insight I think that I wanted to share was the great thing about working for a company like Telstra is that both the industry and the organisation continued to evolve and change during that time that I worked there. It was these sorts of changes that actually created a lot of great opportunities to both learn and develop and further progress my career.

Clare Lezaja:
Throughout my career, I also played a big part in the development of finance graduates and young professionals, and I would often get asked the question, working in the organisation for such a long time, about how did I manage my career progression. So, if I had to sum it up, I think it would probably be these following five key things.

Clare Lezaja:
Firstly, it was about being willing to go above and beyond and to take on either new or additional responsibilities to build and develop skills and experience along the way. Secondly, make sure that you build strong networks of trusted relationships based on your work experiences. And also, look for sponsors during that time in your career, who can actually help you progress and support you when you're looking for promotion and career progression opportunities.

Clare Lezaja:
Thirdly, I think the bit of advice that I got in the early stages of my career was actually: don't go too high, too quickly. And so, with that, I think it's about be patient with your career progression, take the time to build your skills and experience. The timing needs to be right for when you actually take those moves in your career, so don't rush for promotions. Make sure it's the right one and that fits in your career path and your career plan.

Clare Lezaja:
Fourthly, make sure that you actually track your accomplishments to actually help you be able to articulate what your achievements are and to tell what your story is and what you can bring when the promotion opportunities do come up. The final point, and I think Shane touched on this earlier, is it's really important to be a team player and be willing to take the lead to show that you actually have those leadership capabilities.

Dan Langelaan:
I'm sure there's quite a few CPAs out there that are thinking, "I do all these things and yet not getting any promotions, or I'm not getting noticed." Back to you, Shane. What type of things, or behaviours, or actions should someone be doing just to be noticed and to be recognised that they are contributing some of those things.

Shane Hatton:
Yeah, that's a great question. It can be frustrating having to sit almost with this idea that... or this aspiration towards leadership, and yet not getting the opportunity to be able to be in a position of leadership. I'm a firm believer that leadership isn't just about being in charge, but it's also about taking up the responsibility wherever you sit within the organisation. So, I often say to people, "If you don't have the opportunity to go up, if you're not yet being given the opportunity to get promoted into a more senior role, then make the decision to grow out." Which is, "What can I be doing right now to continue to enlarge my leadership capacity so that when the opportunity does arise, I have the opportunity to be able to step into that and not feel like it's going to be short-lived?"

Shane Hatton:
I especially think it's challenging... For people who are stepping into leadership, I often describe it a little bit like being the passenger of a plane being thrown behind the controls of the plane. We can say, "Well, I've been around for a long time. I know everything that there is to know about flying. I travel once a week," and yet, if we were to put you behind the controls of the plane, it's a very different conversation. So, often I'll ask people the question of, "What do you think is going to be required for you when you do find yourself in that position of leadership? What are some of the things that you need to be thinking about now, to prepare yourself for when you do find yourself in that position of leadership?"

Shane Hatton:
So, for people who are feeling frustrated, asking themselves, "What could I be doing right now to get noticed?" One of the things that's important to remember is that, when you show up to an environment or a room when you're early on in your career, part of the responsibility of being in that room is not just to have all the answers or not just to demonstrate to people what you know, but it's also to demonstrate to people, I think, similar to what Clare was saying, the role that you can play within a bigger picture.

Shane Hatton:
Now, I often say to people, "What does it look like to see the bigger picture, which is beyond the scope of my role, which is beyond the scope of my responsibilities, to actually ask the right questions about what is our organisation doing right now? How can I see the bigger picture here, and how can I solve the bigger level problems rather than just the individual problems that I'm experiencing on my own? What are some of the ways that I can bring innovation to my team or to my organisation? And what are some of the ways that I can bring that up rather than waiting for it to be called upon from people who are in higher levels of leadership than where I'm at right now?"

Shane Hatton:
So, I think it's not just about having great answers, but also being able to position yourself in environments where you can ask really good questions.

Dan Langelaan:
Thanks, Shane. Clare, do you have anything from your experience that you'd like to add to that?

Clare Lezaja:
Yeah. Some of these points, I certainly, from my own personal experience, but also just to sort of reinforce, I think, more generally, how I've seen other people succeed. But firstly, clearly, it's around taking initiative, so my advice would be, depending on how your workload is and if it permits, get involved in other things, take on those extra responsibilities. So, get involved in committees, put your hand up for projects, look for the secondments, and use these as opportunities to broaden your experience. As Shane has said, it doesn't have to always be about progression, it's also about breadth and about learning.

Clare Lezaja:
You do need to make sure it's balanced so you don't overwork yourself, but when you see a new project you can get involved in just take advantage of it. Some projects actually have really good visibility in an organisation, so it's a way of actually using your existing skills to actually create some visibility and build your brand. I'd just like to share a saying that I saw, which is, "When you want to stand out at work, use your job description as a starting point, not as an endpoint." So, think about that. About how you can actually build on what your core role is.

Clare Lezaja:
Secondly, I touched on this around building up relationships early, and that was from my own experiences as I progressed through Telstra. It's really important to build a network of alliances, not only within your part of the organisation but also within other parts of the organisation. Even as a finance professional, you're often working with other parts of the business, so build up your networks more broadly. And also, have the courage to actually build your relationships with senior management. Reach out and introduce yourself and get to know their part of the organisation, to help build your reputation and build relationships. Networking also doesn't need to be within an internal environment. You can certainly look for opportunities to develop your brand externally, so look at those external networking opportunities. Obviously, CPA provides an immense amount of great opportunities for you to be able to do that.

Clare Lezaja:
The third point I would probably just wanted it to raise in terms of what you can do to get noticed is, it's a really simple thing, but speak up when you've got ideas or you have a point of view. I know, sometimes it feels like you're in an environment where there may be more senior people in the room or it may not be your area of expertise, but often if there's an idea or a point of view, it's great to raise it because it probably hasn't been considered. That's the wonderful thing about diverse views. So, when you're in a meeting and you've got that idea, that point of view, have the courage to speak up. And if it doesn't feel right in the meeting, then speak to somebody after the meeting.

Clare Lezaja:
In speaking up to the... I think there's one thing also, it's about also recognising and celebrating the achievements of your colleagues. It doesn't always need to be around your own achievements and your expertise and skills. When you see someone else in your team or one of your colleagues has actually done something fantastic, recognise it and speak up, and be sincere about it, as well.

Dan Langelaan:
I'm picking up a little bit of a theme here about, I suppose, building that personal reputation and brand. I suppose we all know that that takes time, but to destroy or to damage that personal reputation and brand can happen quite quickly. Thinking of that, what types of behaviour or actions should you avoid as an employee that could damage your reputation? Shane?

Shane Hatton:
Yeah, I like that question. Just even being aware of that question is an important mindset to have. If you're constantly thinking as a person, "What am I doing right now that might either be helping build a good reputation?" Or, "What might I be doing, even sometimes unconsciously, what might I be doing that could be undermining my reputation in the process?" I think that's even just a really great place to start.

Shane Hatton:
I often talk to leaders about this idea of positioning. Positioning often is a conversation we have in a marketing department or in a branding department, and what we're ultimately trying to do is understand the question of "What's the mental real estate that I occupy in the minds of other people?" The word positioning, the origin of that word, means to place something, which I often describe to people as, "How are you placed in the minds of other people?" I think reputation is one element of how we're placed in the minds of other people. I think it's one of a few other ways that we position ourselves. Which is, reputation is ultimately about, "When my name comes up in conversation, what are the kinds of things that come to mind when people hear my name?"

Shane Hatton:
And part of reputation, I guess, which is public, is fueled by what we decide on personally, which, I guess, is our own narrative. Even leaders that I've spoken to who've been in an organisation or have been in their career for a long time, if I ask them the question, "How are you known?" They will take a few moments to really sit back and reflect and think about, "Well, actually, how am I known as a leader?" They might describe how they'd like to be known. And then, my second question to them is that question, "Is that how you'd like to be known? And if not, what are you doing to change that?"

Shane Hatton:
I think narrative's really important in informing our reputation. There's a really great quote by Patty McCord, who was the Chief People Officer at Netflix. She said, "If people aren't informed by you, there's a good chance they'll be misinformed by somebody else." And so, I guess, in the conversations I have with a lot of people, I often ask them as a starting point, "How would you like to be known? And what could you be doing to intentionally reinforce that narrative as a person?" And then, I guess, another piece of the equation ultimately becomes about the character or the essence of who we are, is about discovering who am I at the core. When nobody else is watching, when nobody else is around, what are my strengths, what are my values, what's my personal vision? Because a lot of that is going to inform our narrative, which ultimately will shape our reputation, which, over time, will eventually affect our credibility.

Shane Hatton:
I think all of these things around our character, which informs our narrative, which informs our reputation, which builds our credibility, I think all of those things are really intertwined in terms of how we position ourselves, both as a leader now, but also position ourselves as a leader for the future. So, in summary, I guess, just be aware of how our narrative is informing our reputation. Or vice versa, be aware of how our reputation currently is, and what are some of the things that we can do to reinforce that, or what are some things that we can do to change that.

Dan Langelaan:
Clare, from your experience, what behaviours or actions have you seen that employees may have demonstrated that has really stifled their ability to be promoted?

Clare Lezaja:
Yeah. Just a couple of points that I'll probably add to some great points that Shane's just gone through. But I think, firstly, not having a clear view of your career goals is probably something that I've observed. So, there, it's really important that you have an idea of what your career path is and to actually speak to your manager about what your ambitions are because nobody can read your mind. You need to make sure that your goals and your intentions are known, so then, when the opportunities come up, you can be considered and be that person in front of mind when they arise. Also, by having a better idea and clarity on what your sort of career goals and your career plan is, you can also think about who you need to connect with so that they can be the people that can help you with getting you to that next role.

Clare Lezaja:
The other one I just wanted to raise as well, Dan, is sometimes, in work environments, you may experience times where you may be working with people who are not exhibiting the types of behaviours that you feel are within the values of an organisation. I think, in those situations, you need to call it out. Because if you're not calling it out, it's almost like you're accepting those behaviours. You don't want to be part of that problem. It's also back to that point that Shane raised around reputation and credibility. To have the courage to call it out really instils that you have strength in the values of what the behaviours need to be in an organisation.

Dan Langelaan:
Where there haven't been any roles available at Telstra, can you leave our listeners with some ideas on some examples of things that you've done to help advance your own career?

Clare Lezaja:
Yeah. I've been at different points of my career, where I've felt that I've stagnated and may have missed an opportunity, or to the point you raised, there just simply isn't any opportunities for you to grow and develop yourself. In those situations, what I've done is I've actually gone and created my own opportunities. They haven't necessarily always been within an organisation. They've also been externally. Some of the examples of where I've done that is I got quite involved around diversity inclusion councils and played a role in how we could promote a great experience around diversity inclusion at Telstra. Also, around the Telstra graduate programme, which was a wonderful experience, working with the Telstra finance graduates. That was, obviously, within the organisation, but it allowed me to understand a little bit more at points in time around the skills and experience that we were looking for to build really quality finance professionals within the organisation.

Clare Lezaja:
That also helped me extend myself externally as well. And I, through that, started to get more involved with CPA Australia, which led to a greater involvement with divisional councils. I eventually ended up spending six years on Victorian Divisional Council at CPA, and it created so many opportunities to learn how a different organisation works, also to work with so many different professionals and get to understand the finance and accounting industry at a much more deeper level. I pretty much spent most of my time in the corporate sector, and it certainly opened up my eyes to this amazing profession that we're all involved in.

Clare Lezaja:
A couple of other examples, probably more to the latest stages of my career, is I'm also part of the Swinburne Business School Industry Advisory Board. That's allowed me to bring my own personal experiences within both the corporate sector, but also as a finance professional, to help the way that the higher ed environment is actually building their courses for future professionals. And also, I'm a board member of Heritage Telecommunications. So, you can see how roles have developed and the opportunities that I've created.

Clare Lezaja:
The other, probably, bits of feedback I would provide linking off that, for people who are listening, is be proactive and create opportunities. You may be working in an area and you can see that a process is not working or that something is not being addressed, that needs focus. Don't wait to be given the approval. Be confident, be proactive, and go and create the opportunity and see where it goes.

Clare Lezaja:
The final thing I just wanted to mention was, it's really important, I think, throughout your career as well, to look at getting a mentor. A mentor can actually help you navigate through your thinking and of your career, where you are, and where you want to be, and help you with the options that you may decide to take in the future.

Dan Langelaan:
Great advice, Clare. Shane, is there any other things that accountants should be considering in terms of if they're looking to advance their career?

Shane Hatton:
Yeah, I would echo what Clare just said on the idea of finding people who are a few steps ahead of you in that journey, and asking, "What could I do to put myself around people that maybe know more than what I do; have experienced more than I've experienced?"

Shane Hatton:
I'll often tell people not just to chase roles, but also to surround yourself with great leaders or look to work alongside great leaders. A lot of the people that I've spoken with who have, I guess, seen really great opportunities for progression within their career, it's often because there's been a leader somewhere along the line that has taken time to stop and invest in them, and they've positioned themselves underneath great leaders, not necessarily just chased after great opportunities. So, I definitely say look for opportunities to put yourself around great leaders, whether in your organisation or outside of your organisation.

Shane Hatton:
I'd also just say that if you are in that, I guess, time while you're waiting to step up into that next level of leadership, I would ask the question of "What would it look like... If I was a leader, what would I want from somebody on my team?" Often, when we ask that question, people would say similar things in the sense that they would want someone that's easy to lead, someone that is uncomplicated, and someone that makes their life a lot easier. Once you know what would you would expect or what you would like as a leader, ask yourself the question, "How could I go and start to be more like that? How do I be less complicated? How do I make it easier for the people I'm around? How do I make it easy to be led?"

Shane Hatton:
Often, there'll be opportunities that come up, and you'll be presented with opportunities, and as ironic as it sounds, sometimes we get opportunities and we push them back. We make them difficult. We almost inhibit ourselves from taking on more because we push back on some of the opportunities that we are given and it makes it complicated, and it makes it difficult to lead people. So, be really uncomplicated. Say yes to opportunities that are going to help you grow and develop. Again, I'd echo everything, Clare just said about making sure that if you don't have the opportunity yet to step up, keep finding ways to continue to grow and develop out.

Dan Langelaan:
Thanks, Shane. That's probably a good note to wrap up today's podcast. I'm just looking here through my notes, and there's some fantastic advice that we've gone through today, and that Shane and Clare have touched on; just about being a leader, learning, sharing what you know, and just remembering leadership isn't always being in control. Being aware of your reputation, your credibility, being genuine as a leader and building that reputation, being reliable, meeting deadlines, taking an issue, being involved, being engaged, having the courage to speak up and be noticed.

Dan Langelaan:
In addition to all of that, if you're out there networking, and there's a lot of opportunities amongst CPA to get involved in networking, and yet, self-development and surrounding yourself with great leaders. There's just fantastic advice within there, and hopefully, you can take two or three of those things and position yourself for your next opportunity.

Dan Langelaan:
I'd just like to firstly, thank Shane and Clare for their time today and contributing to the podcast.

Shane Hatton:
Thanks, so much.

Clare Lezaja:
Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure to share experiences.

Dan Langelaan:
Thanks for joining us, and we hope you've enjoyed the podcast.

Outro:
Thanks for listening to the CPA Australia podcast. For more information on today's episode, please visit the show notes at www.cpaaustralia.com.au/podcast. Never miss an episode by subscribing to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Stitcher.