Kris Fothergill FCPA works from his family boat

Intro:
Hello and welcome to the CPA Australia Podcast, your weekly source for accounting, education, career, and leadership discussion.

Jackie Blondell:
2020 was the year of working remotely. It has perhaps changed forever how people interact and work together. Today we're talking to two work colleagues who set out on a remote working journey even before COVID-19 began. Let's rewind back to July, 2017, when the adventure began. That's when Kris Fothergill, FCPA, and his family bought a sailing boat with the intention of taking a sailing sabbatical.

Jackie Blondell:
The family set sail in May, 2019, with the intention of returning to Southport in Queensland and to work, 12 months later. Kris is a Director at Diagno Accountants and Financial Strategists, based in Southport, on Queensland's Gold Coast. Stephen Robie, CPA, his colleague, is an accountant at the firm. Today we discover how Kris and Steve work together in a very unusual remote working situation and how they see this evolving into the future when Kris is back on dry land. Welcome Kris and Steve.

Kris Fothergill:
Thank you, Jackie. It's lovely to be here. Stephen Robie:
[inaudible 00:01:21].

Jackie Blondell:
Great to have you both. My first question is to Kris. Now, your journey, your sabbatical ended up being a longer one than you thought. Can you tell us where you are now and a little bit about why you embarked on this adventure with your family?

Kris Fothergill:
Sure. Currently we are in Fiji, over in the Western Province, at a place in and around Musket Cove. From a surf perspective, out near Cloudbreak is where we've been based for the last few weeks. Hiding out from cyclones, being that time of the year. And we sailed up here in July, 2020, on something called the Blue Lanes Initiative. We were down in New Zealand when COVID was born and hunkered down there for a period of time. And the world shut and when you're on an ocean going sailing vessels, that's pretty unfortunate. Particularly when you've carved out a season of your life with your reasonably young children, to go and explore.

Kris Fothergill:
There was an initiative that came up by Fiji called Blue Lanes, which enabled vessels to travel to Fiji and the time at sea counted towards quarantine and they set up a quarantine acreage for the balance of the time, and yeah. Anyway, that's how we got to Fiji and that's where we still are at the moment. The truth is the rest of the South Pacific is shut so we feel very blessed to be here.

Kris Fothergill:
Why, and moving on, why has it taken a little longer than first planned? Well, the truth is we always positioned it in a way that the plan is. It was never a solid, "We'll be back in 12 months" or, "We'll be back in" fill in the blank. It was, "The plan is we're going to take a sabbatical, go and explore the South Pacific, carve out some time as a family," like I said, to go and adventure. It turns out that this lifestyle is for us. It's not for everybody, but it is for us. Throw in a global pandemic and working remotely becoming somewhat worldwide accepted, and more to the point, a phenomenal team, and here we are. Closer to a couple of years down the track.

Jackie Blondell:
So the new normal for you really now?

Kris Fothergill:
That's a fair comment. Yeah, it is. It is.

Jackie Blondell:
Yeah. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your role at Diagno and how it changed during sabbatical? Obviously sabbatical is something where you're not working, you're taking time away from work, but then COVID hit, after your year's sabbatical. So, how did it change? Let's take it right back to how you started.

Kris Fothergill:
Okay. I remember somewhat vividly, it was early 2019 calendar year. Coming towards the fourth quarter, for all us accountants, which is the world of year round tax planning, among other things. And we had a proposed departure date of I think it was beginning of May. We struggled to find a weather window to get us from Australia. We left from the Gold Coast, Southport, heading East to New Caledonia, which is about seven days at sea.

Kris Fothergill:
Anyway, we were delayed for a couple of weeks and I remember thinking, "Oh, my goodness, is this going to work?" And then sort of realised, look, nobody's going to ring a bell and say now's the time to go. You've just got to go and see how it unfolds. That being said, that sounds like somewhat of a flippant remark, but there was a couple of years of buildup to what was our departure.

Kris Fothergill:
Not just from a vessel or a family perspective, but from a firm point of view. There was some key strategic moves internally that enabled me to step out. And that is investing into our team, investing into the culture, and ultimately bringing up leadership within the team, reducing my key person dependency, and creating space for the sabbatical to possibly work. But still I've got to admit, when we did throw the dock lines for the last time, I thought, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." And off we went.

Kris Fothergill:
So, for the first ... Well, let's say between when we pushed off which was May, 2019, and March, 2020, which is when ... Small story. When did we first hear about COVID or corona? We were on an island off the East Coast of New Zealand, it's called Great Barrier Island. We were tucked away in this little cove there, and there was this tiny little shop, no power, no nothing. Tiny little shop that was selling local soaps and stuff like that. She said, "How about this corona?"

Kris Fothergill:
I went, "Why are you talking about beer?" In my ignorance. I thought, "Oh," again in my ignorance, "It'll blow over" but anyway it certainly didn't. But between May, 2019, when we departed Australia and we sailed down to New Zealand to escape cyclone season ultimately. And my work, if you like, in that season was hands-onish, but it was more on phone when needed, on emails when needed. But the truth is come COVID, the whole firm ramped up its tech savviness of sorts, in regard to how we communicate.

Kris Fothergill:
It was in Zoom huddles every morning, it was ... Everyone was on their machines, doing what was needed. Emails, client communication, phones, Zoom, you name it. We were just doing what we needed to do to get it done, and we were doing it from all different places. And it also meant that I had a lot of work to do. I remember thinking within the five week lockdown that New Zealand had, which was complete lockdown, stay-at-home, we loaded up our vessel and went with a theory of out of sight, out of mind, and went and dropped the anchor at an uninhibited island that had good reception and got to work. Just rolled the sleeves up for five weeks. A lot of that was communicating with clients, counselling of sorts, and trying to forge a way through what was the beginning of a pandemic.

Jackie Blondell:
So, Kris, did you have a year sabbatical without working or were you available?

Kris Fothergill:
Available.

Jackie Blondell:
Available? Okay.

Kris Fothergill:
The theory is, and happy to share, is we prorated salary based on input. In other words, I was there to support the team and clients where needed, so I never fully unplugged. That wasn't the plan.

Jackie Blondell:
But then once your official year was over, you did ramp up in terms of your role in the firm?

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah, wasn't sort of planned that way. Steve can jump in there, but that's sort of how it unfolded.

Jackie Blondell:
Yeah, absolutely. It was a year where nothing could be planned, so we all worked on our nerves. Steve, can we talk a little bit about your career journey and the work you do now? You started with the firm as a graduate accountant, is that right?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah, sure. I mean, I was good friends with someone who works for a client of ours and put my name forward and here I am effectively seven or eight years later.

Kris Fothergill:
I still remember that phone call.

Stephen Robie:
I was nervous, I was shaking, but I made it. It was a good decision. Started when I was maybe six months away from finishing my uni degree, so I was doing an accounting/IT degree at the time. I've really utilised my IT portion of my degree in my accounting role over the past seven years, but anyway. I was a junior, I was learning the ropes, I was doing what needed to be done and happy to learn and absorb whatever I could from both Kris and the then partner, Scott, at the time.

Stephen Robie:
And yeah, I guess over the last seven years, the firm's gone through a few I guess changes from both a staffing perspective and a partner point of view. I was given the opportunity, what is it? Four years ago now. To acquire some equity in the firm, which I took. And then it's just been a shift. Still a lot of what I'll say is on the tools type work. The debits and credits to get compliance work and advisory stuff out to clients. But there's a lot more of that softer stuff, in terms of managing a team and learning the ropes about how to manage a firm. Not necessarily in Kris' absence, but I'm on the coalface with one of the other directors, Matt. That's how my role is shifting and will continue to shift over the next few years.

Jackie Blondell:
Great. Thanks for that. Kris, let's talk about your background. You got to a senior role very early on. Can you tell us about your journey at the firm?

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah. It was far too quick. Anyway. In hindsight. But here we are. I started similar to Steve, just a few years earlier. As much as straight out of uni and into a position as undergrad accountant and got busy. And then in my early 20s, an opportunity arose to purchase equity of which I said, "Sure." And at the time, it was either ... It's a bit of arrogance perhaps, in hindsight, but I thought at the ripe old age of 23, I'll either go overseas to somewhere like London and pick up some work there or offer me equity type thing. That was the decision that was ... Help me out with words here. The ...

Jackie Blondell:
Oh, you were giving an ultimatum? You were-

Kris Fothergill:
Thank you. That was the ultimatum.

Jackie Blondell:
And then-

Kris Fothergill:
Thank you, Jackie.

Jackie Blondell:
And then they accepted it, which is ...

Kris Fothergill:
Yes. They did. And here we are, however many years later. It wasn't quite that smooth. I mean, I purchased equity bit by bit, over a period of years. And then in the earlier days, I'd call our model a more suburban accounting firm, named after the founding partner. In 2008, we rebranded to what is now Diagno. We repositioned the office into more of a CBD type, which is Southport, in the Gold Coast. We pretend to be a city, I know, compared to some of the capitals.

Kris Fothergill:
Anyway, we shifted from that suburban model to an attempt to be more corporate. Ultimately paid a marketing company a whole lot of money to help with that process and then the GFC hit. That hurt really hard. It impacted our clients, which had a direct flow-on effect to us. They needed our help but didn't have the wherewithal to pay us. That happened in my early 20s or ... Sorry, mid 20s or thereabouts. I remember thinking, "Goodness me, what have I gotten myself into?"

Kris Fothergill:
And it hurt. It hurt emotionally. It was some rugged days, but ultimately I was earning my stripes of sorts. And looking back, even though it was a terrible time when I was in it, what I learned from that period as a young director, probably pushed me forward a few more years in experience, that I otherwise wouldn't have gained. In other words, it was a good thing in the long term. And it shifted the way that I saw things internally within the firm.

Kris Fothergill:
Take it from a cash flow perspective, a team perspective, even diversification of client base, what works well, what doesn't work well. But it was a big shift, a big hit and we rebuilt of sorts, over the next 3-4 years, and so on and so forth to where we are today.

Jackie Blondell:
What happened to the original partner, director, that employed you?

Kris Fothergill:
Well, he's to the island slightly to the West of us. He's in Vanuatu. There was about a 20 year age gap or thereabouts with the founding partner, Scott Proud. He's a good man. We always knew that he was going to depart to stage left at some point but in our mud map it was ... Well, it was going to be three years later than what it was, but one day he sort of looked at me and said, "I'm out."

Kris Fothergill:
There's a big difference between thinking those thoughts and actually communicating that with your partner, business partner. I went, "Oh, goodness," and at that point we had ... When I say we, I'm talking about my wife and I and my family, we had the opportunity to either go, "Okay, let's sail into the sunset now and sell the firm," figuratively speaking, sailing into the sunset.

Jackie Blondell:
Nice.

Kris Fothergill:
You like that? You're welcome. Or, we cut a check. Ultimately we cut a check, but he ... Scott went and built literally from the ground up, a wine and tapas bar with his wife, Darlene, in Vanuatu, in the island of Efate, over on the Western Coast there, and it's called Divi's. Yeah, that's a bit of a shift, isn't it? From the suit and tie sitting behind a desk, but a great shift nonetheless.

Jackie Blondell:
It's an extreme and great shift. So then you were solely in charge of the firm?

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah, I was at the helm, and I didn't really want to be, to be ... Well, it's not that I didn't want to be. It was a big beast, and I didn't have aspirations to dominate the world. It was a means to the next step. So yeah, we did. We had 100% of it and went, "Okay, we've ticked that box. Step at a time. What's the future look like?" In our future, and I think it's important that ... It's really important. I think it's important that the business facilitates your family and what you're passionate about as a family, and not the other way around, where your family facilitates the business, right?

Jackie Blondell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kris Fothergill:
We were aware of what felt like an imbalance at that time. Ultimately I'd gone from shouldering the load with a partner to not, to shouldering the whole thing. We got to work with finding some good quality leaders to help shoulder that load.

Jackie Blondell:
And there's quite a few of you now, so the load is well and truly shouldered, I take it?

Kris Fothergill:
Absolutely. The team is incredible. I can't reiterate it enough. To be able to be talking to you on a sailboat in Fiji, all credit needs to go to the team. If you don't have the right people, it just won't work. And it's a credit to them and we appreciate them on a daily basis. Because they're phenomenal at what they do.

Jackie Blondell:
Brilliant. Okay, let's turn to Steve now, to find out the other side of the equation. Steve, on dry land, can you tell us about how working together with Kris has changed since he set sail?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah, sure. I mean, before Kris left he was the director or guy who was in the office five days a week, 9:00 to 6:00, 6:30, maybe 7:00 some nights, depending on how deep he was in something, and never missed a day. You got very used to being able to open the door and say, "Hey, can you give us a hand with this?" Or, "Can you give us a hand with that?" And then obviously there was a time when he was far less available than that, and for me, being I guess ... We had a lot of, by design or whatever, a lot of Kris' clients at the partner level I was doing the work on.

Stephen Robie:
I'd actually got a lot of face time with Kris in the early days of my career. From a working relationship perspective, it was definitely a mentor, mentee type relationship. Wasn't necessarily as formal as that, but it was probably implied. The shift from Kris not being there five days a week, for me was positive. I look at it positively because there's this inherent safety net of Kris being there to solve the issue, whereas I've had to stand on my own two feet a little bit more over the past couple of years which is only a positive.

Stephen Robie:
Not only from a work perspective, but from a team management perspective and just a general office feel perspective. The way we work now is there's a lot of face-to-face Zoom calls between the two of us and between the team and Kris, to keep those lines of communication open. Kris is the type of person that obviously wants to know what's going on in a firm that he still has a significant equity stake in, so that's only responsible. It's more about how can Kris from my perspective, how can he put across his wisdom or his knowledge to the team?

Stephen Robie:
But less on the reviews and the day-to-day of the how to get work out to clients, that kind of falls to myself and the other director, Matt, to sort out, if that makes sense.

Jackie Blondell:
And-

Kris Fothergill:
Steve, can I jump in there, Jackie?

Jackie Blondell:
Sure, go on.

Kris Fothergill:
Do you reckon it's the norm now the way we're doing things?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah.

Kris Fothergill:
Or do you think ... What are your thoughts?

Stephen Robie:
Two years ago, to be honest, when you were leaving we were all like, "Oh, don't know how this is going to work" and the longer it goes, the easier it is. It's the norm. We haven't been in the same room, Kris, for what? Two years now. But I don't know, we talk probably as much or slightly more, or in larger chunks than when you're in the office every day. I think that's really important. If a key member of the firm is remote constantly, to keep that line of communication open and be available for the rest of the team. We wouldn't be in the position that we are, where we're all comfortable with Kris being on a sailboat, 10 hours sail away, if it wasn't for that.

Kris Fothergill:
I wish it was 10 hours, sorry.

Stephen Robie:
10 days, sorry.

Kris Fothergill:
10 days.

Stephen Robie:
10 days.

Kris Fothergill:
10 hours I'd take.

Jackie Blondell:
But Kris when you were talking about preparing for this time away from the office, I take it from what you were saying that you put in place various protocols in terms of you were less a key person with clients, you boosted the team's structure and team responsibilities. So, those sort of protocols help when you're moving to a new situation, don't they?

Kris Fothergill:
Absolutely. Protocols, perhaps. Empowering, definitely. It was empowering others around me to ... Like, these guys are awesome. It was pulling the greatness out of them of sorts. I'm a firm believer that if I'm the smartest man in the room then we're all in trouble, so I'm always, and the team have heard me say that plenty of times, so I'm always going, "Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that?" And trying to equip the team to almost think outside of their box and stretch in different directions as needed.

Jackie Blondell:
And Steve, you were saying it's sort of like the safety net had been pulled, but in a good way, that if this situation hadn't changed so much, Kris would be always an open door away to check something with. But now you've had to develop other skills and knowledge as to make up for that, that may have not happened if things had gone on as normal.

Stephen Robie:
Yeah. I think for right or wrong, Kris is, and don't take this the wrong way, Kris, you like to know all the ins and outs of what's going on within the firm, and that was easy to do when you were there. Right now you get an update every few days and that's working, but without Kris stepping back, I don't necessarily ... I think it would have been harder for myself to step up into that role. It feels like it has been a little easier even though Kris is not there to mentor it in me at the moment.

Stephen Robie:
It's been a good process and to take more ownership of clients and not have Kris be the guy that runs the meeting or does the whatever, or has the contact, has only been a positive. I can't necessarily think of a negative impact on either a client or firm wide from Kris no longer being on the Gold Coast.

Jackie Blondell:
I find it interesting with clients. They do get very attached to the person they've always dealt with, but if that person is on a sailing boat in the middle of the Pacific, then they will be more open to more contact with other members of the firm, so that perhaps has helped?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah. To be perfectly honest, it's a great story. People love talking about it. All those I'll say "bigger" clients that I'm meeting with are always like, "How's Kris going? What's he doing? Where is he at now?" The question of, "When's he coming back?" Always comes up as well, but we have to be a bit cagey around that one. But it's just something to talk about. Some people are really into it, some people are like, "Oh, that's not for me." It's just another point of I guess realising we're more human.

Stephen Robie:
We're just not about the numbers, we have lives, we have personalities. It's all about making them feel comfortable and involved in celebrating what Kris and the family are doing. Because it's not something that ... I don't know anyone else who's decided to pick up their family and sale across the ocean.

Jackie Blondell:
I think during the time of COVID, when we're all stuck in the places that we're stuck in, we love hearing about other people that can live the life.

Stephen Robie:
Yeah, for sure.

Jackie Blondell:
Yeah. Let's talk about the client base of the firm. I specifically just want to paint not COVID yet, but the firm base. Kris, can you tell us about the client base? What sort of clients that the firm has been cultivating over the years?

Kris Fothergill:
Cultivating, yes. We've been cultivating.

Jackie Blondell:
Cultivating sounds a bit harsh. I mean ...

Kris Fothergill:
No, no. Let's go with it. I like it. Small medium business is the area that we are in. There's no specialties from an industry perspective, or specialisations I should say. However, there is an organic niche in medical professionals or medicos, is something that we have a number of doctors in private practice or otherwise, and they've got a few moving parts that are slightly different to other industries and we're across those. That organic niche has grown over the years.

Kris Fothergill:
But otherwise our school of thought is perhaps a wee bit different to other firms, and that's okay. Because I believe in a diversified client base. First of all, I like to learn about other industries and how they work, and the businesses within those industries and the humans that are in those businesses, right? It provides a really neat cross-section of business in Australia. Also, I don't like putting too many eggs in one basket. We don't have $100,000 clients. I don't subscribe to that.

Kris Fothergill:
That's not the sort of firm we are. Trying to put a bracket on it. There's not an average fee number, but let's say if a client's going to be greater than $40,000 a year, I'm going to question whether or not we even want that, okay? Just because of the resources that's going to take. And if that paints a wee bit of a picture, but then at the same time we're also not that smaller end. We need a bit of help with our bookkeeping. We have a to-don't list, for argument's sake, being a lawyer is on our to-don't list, being bookkeepers, on our to-don't list. Financial advisors, on our to-don't list. You sort of get the idea.

Kris Fothergill:
Broad section of small medium enterprise is the varied ... Apologies for the long winded answer, but that's it in a nutshell.

Jackie Blondell:
Just thinking, I know that Southport is like the CBD and it's the old heart of the Gold Coast, but one would think that tourism businesses would make up part of your client base. Is that the case or not?

Kris Fothergill:
We do have a couple but not many, hey Steve?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah. I can probably count them on one hand.

Jackie Blondell:
Okay. That's lucky, given what devastation it brought to that industry. Let's give Steve a go at talking about how has the year of COVID-19 affected the client base? What was the situation like when it hit and how did the work play over the year for you?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah. What is it? We're nearly 12 months on. We probably are 12 months on from-

Kris Fothergill:
We are, yeah.

Jackie Blondell:
Yes.

Stephen Robie:
... panic stations-

Jackie Blondell:
COVID birthday.

Stephen Robie:
... last April. I just remember when it first hit phone calls, the office phone was running hot with, "Oh God, what does it mean? What's happening?" The government was scrambling to put some stimulus packages in place that ended up being cash flow boost and JobKeeper, that I'm sure all the listeners are well across. But I just remember there was a few press conferences that the PM was giving and almost a minute after they finished, the phone would ring saying, "What does it mean? How does it affect me? How do I keep going?"

Stephen Robie:
We got through that. The learning how the JobKeeper system worked and all that kind of stuff was done. But from a client perspective, and I don't know if you've heard of any, Kris, but all of our clients seem to have come back. There hasn't been that I can recall, a COVID related closure or shutdown of a business as a whole.

Kris Fothergill:
Nah, we've been very, very blessed in that regard. You're spot on. We have-

Stephen Robie:
Whether that's good luck or good management, I'm not sure. Sure there's still businesses recovering and they're still feeling the after effects, in terms of people that deal with international suppliers and customers and whatever, but it's been ... Maybe it's the Gold Coast is just slightly insulated from the whole rest of Australia. Like, obviously Queensland hasn't been as hit as hard as say Victoria, or even New South Wales. So, most of the businesses for our clients are back or above where they were pre-COVID, which is awesome for us, and awesome for them.

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah, can I jump in there? I recall having absolute panic station phone meetings and Zoom meetings with clients in March, April. Along the lines of, "I think this might be it" or, "We've had to shut our doors, what do we do with our 28 staff?" Really tough discussions. And then you fast forward to reviewing and signing off on the 2020 financial year, and they've come up above 2019. It blows my mind, but that is happening.

Jackie Blondell:
I find that extraordinary, too. I mean, you've got your medical cohort, but they're not ... They said that that's just a specialism, but I would think somewhere like the Gold Coast, the knock-on effect of the tourism sector, on other sectors, would have affected the clients. But obviously not. Gold Coast is big enough to be its own ecosystem.

Kris Fothergill:
Well, I can't argue with that. But I admit that the facts don't line up with what we're saying, but it's what we're seeing, yeah.

Jackie Blondell:
That's amazing. Let's talk about what you both expect to see from your clients this year in terms of the future. If things weren't so bad and even a little bit better last year, what's going to happen this year?

Kris Fothergill:
Well, I read articles that put your seat belts on for the race or the rush of insolvencies. And I don't know if that's the insolvency firms, their marketing strategy, or if it's real based on the amount of insolvencies last year compared to a normal year, et cetera, et cetera. But I think it would be foolish to say that we're out of the woods and it's siloed, if you like, to the 2020 year and we're on the other side of it.

Kris Fothergill:
But at the same time, I don't think we should be doomsdaying. Look, if we were to, and help me out here, Steve, if we were to say the amount of clients that took up JobKeeper in the first round, let's say that was 10, okay? Out of a scale of 10. With the second round, I'm going to say it was like 1.5.

Stephen Robie:
Yeah, I was going to say around two, so yeah. For sure. Around three would be half again, or a quarter of that number.

Jackie Blondell:
So ... Go on, go on.

Kris Fothergill:
No, jump in, Jackie.

Jackie Blondell:
I was just going to say for context, for people listening to this podcast, Queensland had not much of a lockdown? It had the freestanding lockdown?

Stephen Robie:
Back in I want to say mid April, there was I guess an encouragement of a work from home where you can. There's been a handful of Brisbane based lockdowns, that one of our awesome admin humans, Talitha, has been caught in, unfortunately. But from a Gold Coast perspective, I don't think there's been a hard, "You lockdown for three days" or a week or whatever. It's just been a restrict your travel where possible. We've been very lucky and fortunate and we appreciate that.

Kris Fothergill:
We have. There has been New South Wales, Queensland border closures which probably had ... We're right on the border, right? That's had a bit of an impact, but it's still, I'm aware that there's listeners out there that are like, "Mate, you don't know what you're talking about, we were locked down for" fill in the blank. We've done all right in that regard. Our clients, they are based generally in South East Queensland or Northern New South Wales. That's sort of the area that we're in, so we've been blessed.

Jackie Blondell:
Very lucky. Let's talk about what's going to happen for the firm in 2021. Are there any major changes? Kris, are you planning to sail back into port, or? How's the firm going to be working?

Kris Fothergill:
We're taking it as it comes, Jackie. So I don't know what that's going to look and feel like in its entirety just yet, for 2021. But how's it looking for the firm? For the most part, more of the same, which sounds a wee bit beige and vanilla, but there's something to be said for acknowledging a sweet spot when you're there. I enjoy the chase and I love pursuing growth. That's almost going to happen regardless. But more growth means larger team, larger premises, and so on and so forth. Over the last 12-18 months, and Steve can jump in here, we've talked about, "What do we want to do from a firm direction perspective? Size wise, growth wise, direction wise."

Kris Fothergill:
At the moment, I think it's polishing what we're doing and doing it extremely well, and to the best of our abilities, implementing best practice across the board, and really adding value to our clients. Which I know is a cliché. I'm constantly sounding like a broken record and the team is always hearing me say, "Put the shoe on the other foot. If you were the client, and you were having the discussion with your accountant, what would you want to hear?"

Kris Fothergill:
That's what we're pursuing. How can we add value to our clients? If we do that, A, it creates a solid ongoing base with our client community, and if we're doing it well and adding value to their world, they're going to talk to people about that. Steve, your thoughts?

Stephen Robie:
Yeah, I think I guess the 2021 and beyond year, like we said, it's about doing what we're doing, but doing it better. It's not about changing the world and getting a 30% uptick on our client fees and blah, blah, blah. It's about how do we make either the process as efficient as possible, the client as happy as possible? How do we make sure we are the best at what we do, realistically? Whether that's through systems, whether that's through the staff we employ, that's where we're going to go.

Stephen Robie:
We have a small team. We've got I guess what is it? Six qualified accountants, Kris being one of them. We're more about how do we make the team function as efficiently as possible and continue to do that without the risk of running them so ragged that they're going to burn out?

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah, we've got to have some fun, absolutely.

Stephen Robie:
That's where we like to have our point of difference from a staff perspective, is openly appreciate them so that they're feeling welcomed and loved and part of the firm as a whole, and not just someone that sits in a chair and generates income for the partners.

Jackie Blondell:
We haven't actually talked about the firm culture, actually. We should get you both to describe it, and we might have Steve go first, because with Kris, I want you talk about the suit and tie situation. Steve, how do you describe the firm culture? You've given a little bit of a hint there, in the fact that there is ... You appreciate the whole person, not just the workhorse.

Stephen Robie:
Yeah. I mean, being a small team, you obviously get to know the individual members a little bit better than if it was a large team. My approach, and this is just the way I function personally, is I'm relatively casual from a language perspective, and just try to make jokes and just make everyone feel as comfortable as possible in the office, to have them I guess be themselves as much as possible. I think that's important.

Stephen Robie:
We strive when we're employing staff, and I'm sure listeners out there are like, "That's the hardest part, getting the right people in the seats." I've struggled with that, we're not immune from that, we've gone through our ups and downs but finding that right person that fits from a personality perspective in the team is probably more important than what skills they have in our perspective. You can teach them how to use the Xeros and the MYOBs and the tax software of the world.

Stephen Robie:
It's more about how do they interact with the other members of the team, so there's not friction just because they exist? I guess we try to be ... I spoke about it before. Communication, we try to just communicate with everyone what's going on in everyone's world, so there's no surprises. The admin team, there's three of them, there is ... In the past we haven't been as communicative, maybe four years ago. And no one necessarily knew what anyone else was doing, but we've really tried over the past little while to make sure that we're having a team catch up every couple of days just to see where everyone's at, see what the issues are in the office.

Stephen Robie:
If there's a client wanting blah, blah, blah, we can make sure we address it in real time, rather than leaving it for a week until we have our Monday morning meeting. That's what we've really tried to do, and I think it's working. The team seems to be relatively happy and content with where they're at, and we've just got to keep doing what we're doing.

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah. I'll jump in there for two seconds. It's a continual work in progress. You don't ring a bell and go, "We've done it." It changes more, but integrity would be the backbone of the firm. Sometimes that's not easy but it wins. You might lose the battle with some things, but you win the war overall definitely, playing things with a straight bat, and have everything aligned with integrity. That's definitely how we roll and again, that is a moving object or a moving target, rather, as well.

Jackie Blondell:
Okay. Can you talk about the culture? You went from being suburban to more of a CBD style firm. I believe you have a business office code for dress?

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah.

Jackie Blondell:
Different to other Gold Coast firms, a lot of other different-

Kris Fothergill:
We unofficially do, yes. We do. To paint the picture, we were based in Oxenford, just not far from Movie World, for those who know it. It was a polo shirt and jean type setup, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. Certainly not throwing stones. Particularly these days, I'm not throwing stones. But we did make a shift, albeit it wasn't super strategic at all. We had rebranded and had a CDD, a creative design document put in place by the marketing firm that helped us with the rebrand. They helped us with the fitout of the office, and things were looking pretty good.

Kris Fothergill:
We'd moved slightly from a polo shirt to more of a collared shirt, but it was still untucked, and the sleeves were rolled up a bit. I remember vividly our lovely receptionist at the time, this is over ... This is many years ago now, said to us, "When are you going to start dressing properly?" We went, "What do you mean?" She said, "Get your suit and tie, get your jacket on, and do it properly." We went, "Okay." And our current attire over a decade later, was born. That's where it started.

Kris Fothergill:
There is that board short and thong type feel of the Gold Coast and I love that, and appreciate, and the truth is personally I've got a massive void between the suit and tie and the office and my weekend attire, if you like, which is boardies and thongs. I don't have much in-between. But yeah, we do. We intentionally do it, and every now and then I have to say to some clients, "What are you doing with a suit and tie on?" We go, "Just roll with it, you'll be okay." It's sort of almost a point of difference of sorts, and-

Jackie Blondell:
Yeah, quite right. Tell me where you found your suit and tie in the Pacific when you were stuck suddenly having to talk to clients?

Kris Fothergill:
Well, yeah. We were in a lovely part of the world called the Bay Of Islands, the Northern part of the North Island of New Zealand, and I learned before we left Australia, I learned that suits and ties just don't work well on a yacht. Literally, it's a struggle to hang them somewhere and keep them and yada yada. To this day, I've actually got an old dinghy ore sitting across top of a couple of bookshelves with all my suits and shirts hanging on them. Or at least when I left that's where they were. Are they still there, Steve?

Stephen Robie:
Still are there, yep. There's been a few more people in the office have added to the [crosstalk 00:48:35]-

Kris Fothergill:
To the collection.

Stephen Robie:
... rack.

Kris Fothergill:
To the dinghy ore, that's good. Yes, I didn't have any appropriate attire to keep the corporate look of sorts, alive. I had a Zoom meeting and for those who haven't been to Paihia in the Bay Of Islands, it's a beautiful town. But it's not the sort of town that you can ... It's a one street town. There's no stores, really, to go and buy. But they do have a very good op shop, so I went, "Struth, I've got a Zoom meeting," so we upped anchor, went into the closest town which was Paihia, found this op shop and splashed out I think it was $1.50 for the shirt, and another dollar for the tie, and went, "Beauty, that'll get the job done."

Kris Fothergill:
It's seen many a Zoom meeting since then, all the way up here in Fiji, as well. Yes, that's how it worked when I was onboard, and still does.

Jackie Blondell:
Right. Great stuff. Last thing I'm going to ask you both, any tips on what you've learned from this unusual work setup and what you'd recommend to other businesses?

Kris Fothergill:
Good question.

Stephen Robie:
I'll start. It's really important to be flexible. It's one thing to work the way you've always worked, and I think we're kind of doing that, but obviously time is precious for Kris. We need to be flexible in terms of both how the review process works, and how to communicate with him, and also being flexible. COVID made it abundantly clear to us, we were also a little bit maybe anxious is the wrong word, but in terms of [crosstalk 00:50:32]-

Kris Fothergill:
Apprehensive. Sorry to ...

Stephen Robie:
... working. Yeah, from a remote working perspective, COVID really forced that down our throat. I think that the flexibility that the team has in adapting to different technologies or working from anywhere now is a big asset of ours. Further than that, I've talked about it a couple of times already in this, is communication. You've got to really communicate well from a partner level, indirectly between us partners, Kris, Matt, and I. There's good communication there, and also to the team back and forth. I think we have a pretty open style and we've always had an open door policy, so that's been two really big things that I've loved that we already had in place without knowing it before the changes of the last 12 months.

Jackie Blondell:
Okay, great. Kris?

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah. It's a fine line. I'm well aware that the picture of being on a sailboat in the South Pacific working remately ... Remotely, rather, it conjures a pretty good picture. It needs to be said it's not without a fair bit of elbow grease and a bit of grit at times, but that aside. Sometimes I feel when talking with clients, I'm like, "The focus is on the client. Not on what I'm doing." But inevitably it's sort of either at the beginning or the end. If it happens at the beginning, this is what I've learned. You've said what have I learned. If a client says, "Where are you? Are you back in Australia yet?" My answer to is, "No, we're not yet. We're not yet. We're still floating around out in the South Pacific, but how are you and what's going on in your world? How can we help?"

Kris Fothergill:
That is all it takes to shift the focus from where I am to what's going on in their world, what's going on in their business, and I can tell you the meeting runs like it would in the boardroom from then on. In other words, put the focus on them, what's going on in their world? Have a good finger on the pulse, what's going on with their team? What struggles or wins have they had of late? And start going down that road. Otherwise, you find yourself in an awkward position going, "Yeah, I'm still wherever but it's just" ... That's what I've learned. Focus on the client, and it works.

Jackie Blondell:
That's great. What about any team management tips, team leadership tips? In terms of remote working. Because a lot of businesses are not going backwards in terms of how they'll be working in the future. You're a textbook case of remote leadership.

Kris Fothergill:
Yeah. It would not be a day that goes by for the most part where there's not numerous emails, phone calls, or a Zoom meeting that occurs. That's probably quantity as well as quality of communication. I dare say if you were to talk to any of the team, because we've been doing it for a wee while now, it is, "Yeah, sure, he's offshore. Kris is offshore, but I can pick up the phone. You want to talk to him?" Or flick him a line, he's going to reply. He's still there. And the discussions that we have with some clients and I know you talked about, you've asked about the team, but with some clients is cheekily I say to them, "Look, I'm in Fiji, but I can tell you I'm in Southport if you like and the discussion will go just the same" and it does.

Kris Fothergill:
It's a wee bit different with the team, though. And I at times perhaps feel a wee bit more distant. There's certain reads and cues that you get when you're there in the flesh, that are more difficult to pick up on from a leadership perspective when you are remote. You need to rely on others, and if I pick up on something, I'll bounce it off Matt or Steve and go, "Hey, am I reading between the lines right or have I missed something?" It's a team effort.

Kris Fothergill:
If Matt and Steve weren't the quality leaders that they were on the coalface, in the ground, then I feel being a sole director and being abroad and remote, it would be very tough. Very tough. There's your answer.

Jackie Blondell:
Great. Lovely. Well, I think we've got to wrap it up today. I'd like to thank Steve and Kris for joining us. Thank you very much.

Kris Fothergill:
Thank you for having us. We appreciate it.

Stephen Robie:
Thanks for having us.

Jackie Blondell:
If listeners would like to find out more about Kris' adventures in the Pacific, go to our show notes where there's a link to the In The Black article, and also the Fothergill family's website where they detail their sailing adventures.

Outro:
Thanks for listening to the CPA Australia Podcast. For more information on today's episode, please visit the show notes at www.cpaaustralia.com.au/podcast. Never miss an episode by subscribing to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Stitcher.